Octava de Zinman
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Van apareciendo reseñas como estas tres primeras en amazon.com De momento en lo global positivas pero lo interesante es escuchar la opinión de los foreros:
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Gustav MAHLER (1860-1911)
Symphony No. 8 in E flat major Symphony of A Thousand (1906) [81:55]
Pater Profundus - Askar Abdrazakov and Alfred Muff (basses)
Doctor Marianus - Anthony Dean Griffey (tenor)
Maria Aegyptica - Birgit Remmert (mezzo)
Mater Gloriosa - Lisa Larsson (soprano)
Una Poenitentium - Juliane Banse (soprano)
Mulier Samaritana - Yvonne Naef (mezzo)
Magna Peccatrix - Melanie Diener (soprano)
Pater Ecstaticus - Stephen Powell (baritone)
Schweizer Kammerchor/Fritz Näf (rehearsal)
WDR Rundfunkchor Köln/Robert Blank (rehearsal)
Zürcher Sängerknaben/Konrad von Aarburg (rehearsal)
Kinderchor Kaltbrunn/Daniel Winiger (rehearsal)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra/David Zinman
rec. 27 February-3 March 2009, Tonhalle, Zurich, Switzerland. Texts included
BMG-RCA RED SEAL 88697 57926 2 [24:25 + 57:30]
At last, David Zinman’s long-awaited Mahler Eighth has arrived. His has been a most rewarding cycle so far; indeed, the Second, Fourth and Fifth are among the finest I’ve heard in recent years. I was slightly less enthusiastic about the First and Third, but there is still much to enjoy in those readings. The Sixth and Seventh strike me as the least successful of the lot, with Zinman less surefooted in these more precipitous scores. Again, though, the freshness and transparency he brings to these symphonies is wholly admirable, and the benefits in terms of clarity, colour and line can outweigh minor structural issues.
Speaking of which I’ve found the most successful Eighths demand a conductor with a long view, one with a sure sense of the music’s final destination and, in Part II, an ability to sustain momentum and pulse. There are many fine Mahler Eighths out there, from Bernstein in the 1960s (CBS/Sony) through to classic Solti in the 1970s (Decca), Tennstedt in the 1980s (EMI), Gielen in 1992 and 2001 (Sony and Hänssler) and, most recently, Antoni Wit on Naxos. The latter was something of a revelation, Wit combining all - or most - of those essential qualities in a recording of real thrust and power. To my mind that’s a much more compelling and coherent performance than Boulez on DG - review - which, for all its starry credentials, is only sporadically successful overall.
The choruses and soloists who play such a pivotal role in this work need to be well drilled and blended. In the main the recordings I’ve mentioned work well in that regard, although there are inevitable caveats about certain solos and choral balances. I’m inclined to be more forgiving of such lapses if the overall thrust and shape of this symphony is properly managed, so that when the finale hoves into view there’s a thrilling sense of musical and emotional catharsis. But it must be carefully prepared for, one musical and dramatic peak after another, and that’s often where performances of the Eighth come unstuck.
One recording I haven’t mentioned so far is the famous Horenstein/LSO version from 1959 (BBC Legends). Of the many recordings and live performances I’ve heard over the years this holds a special place in my affections. For starters it has all the tension and risk-taking that come with a live performance - and the fluffs - but any criticisms are simply swept away by the majesty and power of this classic reading. What’s more, the BBC engineers surpassed themselves with a recording of astonishing depth and detail. Mandatory listening for all Mahlerians, I’d say, and a reminder of just how high the bar has been set for this symphony.
In Zinman’s hands the opening hymn has plenty of weight, the organ very much in evidence. True, there may be less impetuoso than usual here, but as the work unfolds it becomes clear Zinman has opted for a broad, rather measured, view of this music, with tempi adjusted accordingly. In ‘Imple superna gratia’ the soloists aren’t as focused as they need to be - more on that later - although the bells are nicely caught and the organ adds to the well-upholstered sound. And that’s a real disappointment; after producing seven airy, spacious and finely detailed recordings in the cycle so far, the RCA engineers have come up with a close, rather diffuse sound for the Eighth.
At Tempo I Zinman’s tempi become more of an issue; yes, Mahler does write ‘ohne hastig’, but this is just too ponderous for my tastes. And in the ‘Accende lumen sensibus’ I missed that initial orchestral flare, just before Mahler really turns up the wick and the choruses take flame. I also missed the sense of breadth and width that the best Eighths convey, and I did begin to wonder whether the forces here assembled proved too much for the Tonhalle. That might explain the narrow soundstage and the lack of air in this recording, noticeable on both the CD and SACD layers. So, when the opening hymn returns it sounds congested and rather joyless.
The boys’ splendid singing in ‘Gloria Patri Domino’ certainly lifted my spirits a little. The timps are just superb here, the organ a powerful, pulsing presence. And at last there’s real radiance at the close. But this all comes at a cost, the general lethargy of this performance making the climaxes seem overheated by comparison. I began to wonder just how Zinman was going to navigate the literal and metaphorical peaks and valleys of Part II. Wit is very persuasive here, and there’s a wonderfully rapt quality to his reading as well.
Zinman’s Part II starts well enough, but it’s clear there’s little of the mystery that others find at this point. On the plus side, Zinman does uncover the loveliest colours and teases out all kinds of instrumental nuances. These are qualities I admire in the rest of his cycle, but this time round that accompanying lightness of touch seems to have deserted him. That said, there is plenty of urgency and amplitude in the Più mosso section, the Zurich band playing with commendable passion and bite, the lower brass suitably sonorous. After that the chorus and echo section - ‘Waldung, sie schwankt heran’ - seems a touch prosaic, even contrived, adding to the growing sense that Part II is going to be just as uneven - and frustrating - as Part I.
This movement is just too fragmented for my tastes, a series of discrete tableaux rather than a meticulously organised symphonic whole. The soloists aren’t terribly focused either; they don’t give the impression they’re listening to each other and singing as a close-knit team. Stephen Powell’s Pater Ecstaticus is reasonably well sung, although he does struggle under pressure, and the Pater Profundus - shared between Askar Abdrazakov and Alfred Muff - isn’t very well projected. Zinman’s mannered phrasing and slow tempi cause real problems for these soloists, who have to resort to a Wagnerian bark rather than cultivate a smoother vocal line. Thank heavens for the angelic choirs, who give this broken-backed performance a much-needed lift.
Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey’s ‘Höchste Herrscherin der Welt!’ comes across as rather plaintive, his voice marred by a distracting beat. There’s some soothing balm in the gorgeous harp figures of ‘Dir, der Unberührbaren’. Oh, if only this performance were so beguiling all the time. As for the women, Juliane Banse’s Una Poenitentium has plenty of reach and Melanie Diener’s Magna Peccatrix is fine, but Yvonne Naef’s Mulier Samaritana is much too uneven. There are times when vocal shortcomings might be less of an issue; for instance, Wit’s soloists aren’t A-listers, but the overall sweep and surge of his reading is such that it hardly matters. In Zinman’s case sluggish tempi - and the close recording - leave the singers cruelly exposed.
Doctor Marianus’s commanding ‘Blicket auf’ should arrive as if on the crest of a deep swell that soon breaks as a great wave in the symphony’s closing pages. Sadly, it’s no such thing; but since the undertow that usually propels us towards the shore is missing from this performance, that’s hardly surprising. The choruses acquit themselves very well at the close, the organ, tam tam and cymbals simply magnificent. this is one of Mahler’s most overwhelming finales and, in fairness to Zinman and his crew, they bring it off rather well.
Perhaps when a recording is as eagerly awaited as this any sense of disappointment is bound to be magnified. And I can’t tell you how underwhelmed I am by this new Eighth; that it fails in so many ways - musically, dramatically, sonically - is cause for regret, especially when Zinman’s earlier recordings hinted at a great Mahler cycle in the making. True, few conductors are equally successful in all the symphonies, and at least the Ninth, Tenth and Das Lied von der Erde are still to come.
Ever the optimist, all I can say is onward the Ninth!
Dan Morgan
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/May10/Mahler8_88697579262025.htmSymphony No. 8 in E flat major Symphony of A Thousand (1906) [81:55]
Pater Profundus - Askar Abdrazakov and Alfred Muff (basses)
Doctor Marianus - Anthony Dean Griffey (tenor)
Maria Aegyptica - Birgit Remmert (mezzo)
Mater Gloriosa - Lisa Larsson (soprano)
Una Poenitentium - Juliane Banse (soprano)
Mulier Samaritana - Yvonne Naef (mezzo)
Magna Peccatrix - Melanie Diener (soprano)
Pater Ecstaticus - Stephen Powell (baritone)
Schweizer Kammerchor/Fritz Näf (rehearsal)
WDR Rundfunkchor Köln/Robert Blank (rehearsal)
Zürcher Sängerknaben/Konrad von Aarburg (rehearsal)
Kinderchor Kaltbrunn/Daniel Winiger (rehearsal)
Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra/David Zinman
rec. 27 February-3 March 2009, Tonhalle, Zurich, Switzerland. Texts included
BMG-RCA RED SEAL 88697 57926 2 [24:25 + 57:30]
At last, David Zinman’s long-awaited Mahler Eighth has arrived. His has been a most rewarding cycle so far; indeed, the Second, Fourth and Fifth are among the finest I’ve heard in recent years. I was slightly less enthusiastic about the First and Third, but there is still much to enjoy in those readings. The Sixth and Seventh strike me as the least successful of the lot, with Zinman less surefooted in these more precipitous scores. Again, though, the freshness and transparency he brings to these symphonies is wholly admirable, and the benefits in terms of clarity, colour and line can outweigh minor structural issues.
Speaking of which I’ve found the most successful Eighths demand a conductor with a long view, one with a sure sense of the music’s final destination and, in Part II, an ability to sustain momentum and pulse. There are many fine Mahler Eighths out there, from Bernstein in the 1960s (CBS/Sony) through to classic Solti in the 1970s (Decca), Tennstedt in the 1980s (EMI), Gielen in 1992 and 2001 (Sony and Hänssler) and, most recently, Antoni Wit on Naxos. The latter was something of a revelation, Wit combining all - or most - of those essential qualities in a recording of real thrust and power. To my mind that’s a much more compelling and coherent performance than Boulez on DG - review - which, for all its starry credentials, is only sporadically successful overall.
The choruses and soloists who play such a pivotal role in this work need to be well drilled and blended. In the main the recordings I’ve mentioned work well in that regard, although there are inevitable caveats about certain solos and choral balances. I’m inclined to be more forgiving of such lapses if the overall thrust and shape of this symphony is properly managed, so that when the finale hoves into view there’s a thrilling sense of musical and emotional catharsis. But it must be carefully prepared for, one musical and dramatic peak after another, and that’s often where performances of the Eighth come unstuck.
One recording I haven’t mentioned so far is the famous Horenstein/LSO version from 1959 (BBC Legends). Of the many recordings and live performances I’ve heard over the years this holds a special place in my affections. For starters it has all the tension and risk-taking that come with a live performance - and the fluffs - but any criticisms are simply swept away by the majesty and power of this classic reading. What’s more, the BBC engineers surpassed themselves with a recording of astonishing depth and detail. Mandatory listening for all Mahlerians, I’d say, and a reminder of just how high the bar has been set for this symphony.
In Zinman’s hands the opening hymn has plenty of weight, the organ very much in evidence. True, there may be less impetuoso than usual here, but as the work unfolds it becomes clear Zinman has opted for a broad, rather measured, view of this music, with tempi adjusted accordingly. In ‘Imple superna gratia’ the soloists aren’t as focused as they need to be - more on that later - although the bells are nicely caught and the organ adds to the well-upholstered sound. And that’s a real disappointment; after producing seven airy, spacious and finely detailed recordings in the cycle so far, the RCA engineers have come up with a close, rather diffuse sound for the Eighth.
At Tempo I Zinman’s tempi become more of an issue; yes, Mahler does write ‘ohne hastig’, but this is just too ponderous for my tastes. And in the ‘Accende lumen sensibus’ I missed that initial orchestral flare, just before Mahler really turns up the wick and the choruses take flame. I also missed the sense of breadth and width that the best Eighths convey, and I did begin to wonder whether the forces here assembled proved too much for the Tonhalle. That might explain the narrow soundstage and the lack of air in this recording, noticeable on both the CD and SACD layers. So, when the opening hymn returns it sounds congested and rather joyless.
The boys’ splendid singing in ‘Gloria Patri Domino’ certainly lifted my spirits a little. The timps are just superb here, the organ a powerful, pulsing presence. And at last there’s real radiance at the close. But this all comes at a cost, the general lethargy of this performance making the climaxes seem overheated by comparison. I began to wonder just how Zinman was going to navigate the literal and metaphorical peaks and valleys of Part II. Wit is very persuasive here, and there’s a wonderfully rapt quality to his reading as well.
Zinman’s Part II starts well enough, but it’s clear there’s little of the mystery that others find at this point. On the plus side, Zinman does uncover the loveliest colours and teases out all kinds of instrumental nuances. These are qualities I admire in the rest of his cycle, but this time round that accompanying lightness of touch seems to have deserted him. That said, there is plenty of urgency and amplitude in the Più mosso section, the Zurich band playing with commendable passion and bite, the lower brass suitably sonorous. After that the chorus and echo section - ‘Waldung, sie schwankt heran’ - seems a touch prosaic, even contrived, adding to the growing sense that Part II is going to be just as uneven - and frustrating - as Part I.
This movement is just too fragmented for my tastes, a series of discrete tableaux rather than a meticulously organised symphonic whole. The soloists aren’t terribly focused either; they don’t give the impression they’re listening to each other and singing as a close-knit team. Stephen Powell’s Pater Ecstaticus is reasonably well sung, although he does struggle under pressure, and the Pater Profundus - shared between Askar Abdrazakov and Alfred Muff - isn’t very well projected. Zinman’s mannered phrasing and slow tempi cause real problems for these soloists, who have to resort to a Wagnerian bark rather than cultivate a smoother vocal line. Thank heavens for the angelic choirs, who give this broken-backed performance a much-needed lift.
Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey’s ‘Höchste Herrscherin der Welt!’ comes across as rather plaintive, his voice marred by a distracting beat. There’s some soothing balm in the gorgeous harp figures of ‘Dir, der Unberührbaren’. Oh, if only this performance were so beguiling all the time. As for the women, Juliane Banse’s Una Poenitentium has plenty of reach and Melanie Diener’s Magna Peccatrix is fine, but Yvonne Naef’s Mulier Samaritana is much too uneven. There are times when vocal shortcomings might be less of an issue; for instance, Wit’s soloists aren’t A-listers, but the overall sweep and surge of his reading is such that it hardly matters. In Zinman’s case sluggish tempi - and the close recording - leave the singers cruelly exposed.
Doctor Marianus’s commanding ‘Blicket auf’ should arrive as if on the crest of a deep swell that soon breaks as a great wave in the symphony’s closing pages. Sadly, it’s no such thing; but since the undertow that usually propels us towards the shore is missing from this performance, that’s hardly surprising. The choruses acquit themselves very well at the close, the organ, tam tam and cymbals simply magnificent. this is one of Mahler’s most overwhelming finales and, in fairness to Zinman and his crew, they bring it off rather well.
Perhaps when a recording is as eagerly awaited as this any sense of disappointment is bound to be magnified. And I can’t tell you how underwhelmed I am by this new Eighth; that it fails in so many ways - musically, dramatically, sonically - is cause for regret, especially when Zinman’s earlier recordings hinted at a great Mahler cycle in the making. True, few conductors are equally successful in all the symphonies, and at least the Ninth, Tenth and Das Lied von der Erde are still to come.
Ever the optimist, all I can say is onward the Ninth!
Dan Morgan
Moreno- Cantidad de envíos : 1407
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Desde luego, ni un mínimo punto de acuerdo entre las diferentes críticas.
Ignacio- Cantidad de envíos : 908
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Sí, por eso pedía la opinión a los foreros que la han escuchado
Psanquin- administrador
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Personalmente, luego de escuchar tres veces la versión, la verdad es que me ha decepcionado, me esperaba mucho más debido a lo comentado por personas de este mismo foro que tuvieron la oportunidad de presenciar incluso las secciones de grabación. Como ya le escribí a un querido forero al respecto, traslado parte de ese mensaje: “Por otra parte, también quería escribirte desde hace días sobre la Octava de Zinman… la versión de Zinman me ha decepcionado. Cuando la escuché por primera vez me llevé directamente una mala sensación. Visto que ni los medios ni el momento eran los adecuados para apreciar claramente la interpretación (estaba en Italia) decidí esperar para escucharla con los medios adecuados, estando en casa y con tiempo por delante. Mi impresión fue la misma e incluso ha ido en aumento, con un Veni, creator spiritus bien representado y equilibrado, pero con una segunda parte (Schlussszene aus Goethe Faust II) muy floja a mi gusto. Siempre ha sido la segunda parte de la Octava la que realmente me cautiva, la interpretación de Zinman incluso me irrita, pierde octanaje en el camino, opta en algunos casos (muchos diría yo) por reprimir las emociones utilizando en ocasiones la misma estrategia de Boulez (DG), adhiriéndose de un modo inflexible a las indicaciones “relativas” de la partitura, sobre todo a ese nicht eilen que tanto perturba y complica a los directores, perdiendo mucho de lo emocional que arrastra la obra. Justamente, lo que me fascina de interpretaciones como la de Gielen (Hassler) es que respetan la partitura pero no ignoran la carga tan emotiva que tiene una sinfonía como esta, concediendo esas aceleraciones puntuales que tanto benefician, pero sin exagerar. Creo que la Octava es la sinfonía que más sufre si es interpretada de una forma excesivamente analítica. En cuanto al reparto de cantantes, muy bien, exceptuando tal vez al tenor Anthony Griffey. En definitiva, una Octava que no me convence, a momento me parece fingida, ya no por Zinman y su orquesta sino también porque intuyo que la tecnología ha trabajado de más aquí. Curiosamente, otras de las carencias que me llaman la atención es la poca intensidad que tienen las secciones corales, no tanto en el Veni creator como en la segunda parte, el coro de los niños también lo percibo sin magia, sin esa emoción esencial que se crea en el Selige Knaben (Neige, Neige, Du Ohnegleiche), es una pena que un coro de niños suene así de neutral, de apagado. A momento se percibe a los coros falto de efectivos ¿Fueron muy reducidos en cuanto a personal se refiere?. Tampoco me convence el acoplamiento entre las secciones corales y la orquesta, en este punto también noto algunas confusiones entre los coros en el Gloria Patri Domino del Veni creator, no están bien amalgamados.”
Lo que realmente me llama la atención ahora es saber las opiniones y reflexiones de los que tuvieron la oportunidad de escuchar esa misma Octava en vivo, al parecer los resultados han sido muy diferentes. ¿A qué se debe? ¿ La tecnología actual en vez de favorecer perjudica? ¿Qué tanto les cuesta actualmente, con todos los medios disponibles, grabar simplemente lo que se ha ejecutado en la interpretación?
Para finalizar, solo decirle a muchos de los ingenieros que han grabado, editado y arruinado interpretaciones de calidad (me viene a la mente la Novena de Abbado con la Filarmónica de Berlín), que los melómanos en general, al menos así lo percibo yo, no buscamos una interpretación “perfectamente pulcra”, impactante del siglo XXI, un Matrix mahleriano. No hacen falta cuatro conciertos para luego mezclarlos y sacar el “The best of”, no hace falta cientos de micrófonos abriéndose y cerrándose cada instante, ni de una gran mesa de mezclas, no hace falta sino simplemente registrar un instante, un momento preciso en el que es ejecutada una hermosa obra bajo la batuta de un director y una orquesta entregada, queremos solo el verídico resultado con todas sus imperfecciones y virtudes!!! solo eso!!! para al menos transportarnos en el tiempo y en el espacio a tierras de nadie. Me conformo solamente con el único micrófono con el que supuestamente se grabó la Novena de Klemperer!!!
Lo que realmente me llama la atención ahora es saber las opiniones y reflexiones de los que tuvieron la oportunidad de escuchar esa misma Octava en vivo, al parecer los resultados han sido muy diferentes. ¿A qué se debe? ¿ La tecnología actual en vez de favorecer perjudica? ¿Qué tanto les cuesta actualmente, con todos los medios disponibles, grabar simplemente lo que se ha ejecutado en la interpretación?
Para finalizar, solo decirle a muchos de los ingenieros que han grabado, editado y arruinado interpretaciones de calidad (me viene a la mente la Novena de Abbado con la Filarmónica de Berlín), que los melómanos en general, al menos así lo percibo yo, no buscamos una interpretación “perfectamente pulcra”, impactante del siglo XXI, un Matrix mahleriano. No hacen falta cuatro conciertos para luego mezclarlos y sacar el “The best of”, no hace falta cientos de micrófonos abriéndose y cerrándose cada instante, ni de una gran mesa de mezclas, no hace falta sino simplemente registrar un instante, un momento preciso en el que es ejecutada una hermosa obra bajo la batuta de un director y una orquesta entregada, queremos solo el verídico resultado con todas sus imperfecciones y virtudes!!! solo eso!!! para al menos transportarnos en el tiempo y en el espacio a tierras de nadie. Me conformo solamente con el único micrófono con el que supuestamente se grabó la Novena de Klemperer!!!
Moreno- Cantidad de envíos : 1407
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Yo me la estoy descargando...
Ludovyk- Cantidad de envíos : 1008
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Genial Ludovyk, así conoceremos tus impresiones. Moreno, gracias por hacer públicas las tuyas Muy jugosas.
La tuve el otro día en mis manos pero no me decidí a comprarla; prefiero mantener un tiempo imborrable la sensación extraordinaria que ese concierto nos produjo.
La tuve el otro día en mis manos pero no me decidí a comprarla; prefiero mantener un tiempo imborrable la sensación extraordinaria que ese concierto nos produjo.
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Robertino Bergamasco- Cantidad de envíos : 4479
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Pero ..., vamos a ver..., ¿no había sido supervisada la grabación por una comisión de la g-m.es presente durante las tomas?.Robertino Bergamasco escribió:Una decepción total la Octava de Zinman, lo peor del ciclo hasta ahora con la Primera; a parte que la edición es un desastre. ......
¿Y tampoco os han mentado a vosotros en las notas de la carpetilla?, ¿ni siquiera en el PDF?.
¡¡¡¡Estais despedidos!!!!!
Ignacio- Cantidad de envíos : 908
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Me temo que una vez más se confirma la primacía del directo, con todas las pifias que se quiera. Las grabaciones, a pesar de todas las posibilidades técnicas, siempre se quedan cortas y más en una obra monumental como la Octava! No, Ignacio, no están despedidos, sólo están "decepcionados".........
gustavo- Cantidad de envíos : 3368
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Re: Octava de Zinman
gustavo escribió:Me temo que una vez más se confirma la primacía del directo
¿Es preferible un concierto malo o mediocre a un disco perfecto?
Ludovyk- Cantidad de envíos : 1008
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Robertino Bergamasco- Cantidad de envíos : 4479
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Robertino Bergamasco escribió:¿es preferible un concierto de Furcio de Burgos al frente de la ONE, a un Living Stereo de los 50, entonces ? Yo lo tengo claro...
Joooo... Has ido a poner dos ejemplos extremos. Pero sí, yo también lo tengo clarísimo.
Se les está dando demasiada importancia a “las pifias”, en mi opinión, siempre que se habla de música en directo. Para mí las pifias casi por definición son un hecho aislado, que no empaña para nada el balance de un concierto si el resto es bueno. ¿Qué un solista falla una nota, o una intervención? ¿Y qué pasa por ello??? Puede que incluso haya arriesgado, haya buscado algo más, y no lo sepamos… ¿No habría que darle las gracias por ello? ¿Te acuerdas toda tu vida de un concierto de Giulini, o de Celibidache, o de Markevitch, porque nadie falló y todo salió perfecto, o porque aquella tarde se hizo Música con mayúsculas?La primacía segun a quien le preguntes... para mi sí, prefiero el directo, pero hay otros que se vuelven locos por un buen laboratorio...
La verdad es que creo que habría que desterrar la palabra “pifia” de este foro
Ludovyk- Cantidad de envíos : 1008
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Re: Octava de Zinman
Ludovyk escribió: ¿Es preferible un concierto malo o mediocre a un disco perfecto?
El disco perfecto cumple su función, porque no se puede ir siempre a los conciertos y no se pueden escuchar en directo todas las obras que te gustaría. Pero un concierto en directo es siempre un acontecimiento, es arte en vivo y no enlatado, lo que ya de por sí merece la pena. Luego, si el concierto resulta mediocre pues mala suerte pero el sonido siempre será inigualable. Y, en el peor de los casos, queda el irse a tomar una copa extra para olvidar...
gustavo- Cantidad de envíos : 3368
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Robertino Bergamasco- Cantidad de envíos : 4479
Fecha de inscripción : 14/07/2009
Re: Octava de Zinman
El problema no son la presencia o ausencia de pifias, ni determinar si es mejor el concierto o el disco. El problema actual, así lo veo yo, es que en muchos casos son incapaces de transferir a un disco de un modo verídico lo que se ha interpretado en un concierto. Al parecer, cada año que avanza muchas de las grabaciones son exageradamente retocadas por los ingenieros, técnicos, editores… para crear lo que para ellos es “la perfecta versión comercial”, muy parecido en el cine al modelo taquillero de Hollywood y a muchas de estas actualidades del 3D. Lo realmente paradójico es que, habiendo una mayor calidad en tecnología receptora, no hablo de mesas de mezclas ni grandes programas informáticos, solo me refiero a calidad en lo que a micrófonos se refiere, y sobre todo, a un mayor conocimiento del funcionamiento de la física del sonido y la acústica, muchos de los discos tienen que ser exageradamente retocados porque aparentemente el resultado de la captación del sonido no es “bueno”. De allí que hace un par de días mencionara la famosa grabación de la Novena de Klemperer. Es más, estoy casi seguro de que si la Octava de Zinman hubiese sido tratada, me refiero a grabación y edición, como la Octava de Horenstein de hace más de cincuenta años, el resultado para muchos de los melómanos hubiera sido mucho más satisfactorio, al menos hubiera reflejado mejor la realidad de ese concierto que Psanquin recuerda con tanta emoción. Lo realmente particular que está sucediendo actualmente es que, aunque muchos de los conciertos que se cuelgan en el hilo de intercambios sean grabados de una manera “no comercial”, en muchos de los casos su valor está siendo muy superior a muchas de las grabaciones sacadas comercialmente en disco, de modo que preferimos simplemente la realidad con todos sus defectos y virtudes como la vida misma, que esa ficción en lo que se han convertido mucho de los discos actuales que se comercializan, me refiero a muchos no a todos, esto también es importante matizarlo.
Moreno- Cantidad de envíos : 1407
Fecha de inscripción : 21/02/2009
Re: Octava de Zinman
Es que de un concierto en el que hay un número excesivo de pifias hay que salir corriendo cuanto antes, y no hablar más de él
Pues la verdad, yo no me hago tantas preguntas, y sigo viendo muy clara la diferencia que hay entre, ya que sacas el ejemplo, la Primera de Minneapolis, con sus supuestas imperfecciones, y un concierto olvidable e inútil (hay muchos así…), de esos de los que dice gustavo que son “acontecimientos” por el mero hecho de que en ellos se toca música en directo . Yo he sido un neófito con grabaciones así, y cuando escuchaba esas mismas obras en directo, neófito todavía, era ya muy consciente de que había un mundo entre unas cosas y otras. Pues claro que recomendaría esas grabaciones a alguien que empieza en esto, pero además convencidísimo. Antes que las grabaciones relamidas y estériles en DDD… Si además, está claro que la perfección técnica de una ejecución ha sido una obsesión relativamente moderna, quizá de Karajan a esta parte. A Walter, a Klemperer, a Knappertsbusch, a Furtwängler… creo que el tema de los errores de ejecución les daba igual: sus grabaciones en directo así parecen atestiguarlo. Tú mismo lo insinúas... Pero eso sí, no creo que aquellos conciertos fueran ningún bolo como los que nos apretamos hoy en día.
Pues la verdad, yo no me hago tantas preguntas, y sigo viendo muy clara la diferencia que hay entre, ya que sacas el ejemplo, la Primera de Minneapolis, con sus supuestas imperfecciones, y un concierto olvidable e inútil (hay muchos así…), de esos de los que dice gustavo que son “acontecimientos” por el mero hecho de que en ellos se toca música en directo . Yo he sido un neófito con grabaciones así, y cuando escuchaba esas mismas obras en directo, neófito todavía, era ya muy consciente de que había un mundo entre unas cosas y otras. Pues claro que recomendaría esas grabaciones a alguien que empieza en esto, pero además convencidísimo. Antes que las grabaciones relamidas y estériles en DDD… Si además, está claro que la perfección técnica de una ejecución ha sido una obsesión relativamente moderna, quizá de Karajan a esta parte. A Walter, a Klemperer, a Knappertsbusch, a Furtwängler… creo que el tema de los errores de ejecución les daba igual: sus grabaciones en directo así parecen atestiguarlo. Tú mismo lo insinúas... Pero eso sí, no creo que aquellos conciertos fueran ningún bolo como los que nos apretamos hoy en día.
Ludovyk- Cantidad de envíos : 1008
Fecha de inscripción : 16/03/2008
Robertino Bergamasco- Cantidad de envíos : 4479
Fecha de inscripción : 14/07/2009
Re: Octava de Zinman
No estoy de acuerdo: un buen disco es disfrutable y un buen concierto, tambien. Un mal disco es insufrible, pero siempre tienes el mando a distancia a mano , mientras que un mal concierto es igual de insufrible pero no tienes "mando a distancia". Lo del sonido no es un argumento a favor porque si el concierto es malo, suena mal, lo mires como lo mires.gustavo escribió:Ludovyk escribió: ¿Es preferible un concierto malo o mediocre a un disco perfecto?
El disco perfecto cumple su función, porque no se puede ir siempre a los conciertos y no se pueden escuchar en directo todas las obras que te gustaría. Pero un concierto en directo es siempre un acontecimiento, es arte en vivo y no enlatado, lo que ya de por sí merece la pena. Luego, si el concierto resulta mediocre pues mala suerte pero el sonido siempre será inigualable.
Eso es lo que solemos hacer Ludo y yo habitualmente ...... ¡en los descansos!. (Ultimamente, demasiado habitualmente )gustavo escribió:Y, en el peor de los casos, queda el irse a tomar una copa extra para olvidar...
Ignacio- Cantidad de envíos : 908
Fecha de inscripción : 15/01/2009
Re: Octava de Zinman
El crítico de SACD.net termina su crítica haciéndose la misma pregunta que aquí y concluye obviamente que
there is no substitute for the collective experience of a good live performance
Esta es la crítica, bastante positiva una vez más:
In the summer of 1906, Mahler returned to his country retreat at Maiernigg in Southern Austria for his holiday, in fact an annual composition period. At first deeply frustrated by a lack of ideas, the words of a Latin hymn came to him - "Veni Creator Spiritus!" - an imperious demand for inspiration from the Holy Spirit. He began to set this to music immediately, and in eight weeks of feverish effort, he completed the bulk of the work.
Mahler's first encounter with the Veni Creator text was in Goethe's translation, where the poet considered the hymn to be a call to "the universal genius of the world". This philosophical view led Mahler next to set the second scene of Goethe's 'Faust' as part of the new symphony. Goethe's idealisation of the Eternal Feminine principle was deeply buried in Mahler's own psyche. As a child, he witnessed his father's repeated brutal drunken attacks on Mahler's mother, and this 'Mary-complex' later brought Mahler appalling anguish because of his inability to satisfactorily declare his love for his own wife, Alma.
Working from an initial four movement sketch of the Eighth Symphony, Mahler was finally able to bring together the religious creative essence of Part 1 (strikingly revealed by the dominating power of the organ) with 'Creation through Eroticism' from the Faust scene, which finally became Part 2. At the end of the work, the Chorus intones "Alles Vergängliche" (all is transitory) - except, as they next sing, the Eternal Feminine, which according to Goethe "draws us towards Heaven". Sacred and Profane are thus united. Mahler lived, of course, during a period in which much attention was given to sexuality as a fount of creativity. The presence of the children's choir is also symbolic for Mahler. They represent the potentiality of Youth, and, more personally, the traumatic loss of six brothers during his childhood (and of course later his own daughter's death). Significantly too, the Eighth Symphony was finally dedicated to Alma.
The first performance in Munich of the Eighth, with over a thousand performers, was an outstanding success for Mahler. Amidst a lengthy standing applause, Bruno Walter recalled that laying down his baton, he ascended the platform steps to move along the rows of the children's choirs, shaking hands with each of them.
Mahler declared to Sibelius that the Symphony "must be the World". It is therefore not surprising that there are many possible approaches to interpretation of his symphonies, giving ardent Mahlerians endless opportunities for picking at details in every performance . For the Eighth, however, we have one unequivocal criterion from the composer himself. "After the first theme there will be no adversary left in the hall, it must bowl every one over", he tells us.
David Zinman's Mahler series with his Tonhalle Orchestra, Zurich is marked by his eschewing of various over-inflated and histrionic performing practises, relying on a deeply thought-through view of the cycle, and taking closer note of the myriad performance instructions which the composer left in his scores. This leaner, cleaner view has led to greater transparency and also less transfer of a conductor's personal foibles than in some other performances.
Zinman and Tilson-Thomas in his recent Eighth both start Part 1 at a brisk tempo, obeying Mahler's instruction of 'impetuoso', in great contrast to Chailly, who is ponderously slow. The first radiant chord of Eb Major sounded by the low winds, string basses and the Tonhalle's 4 manual Kleuker and Steinmeyer organ is indeed arresting, and the organ has an unmistakable presence throughout Part 1, its fiery upper work and very deep pedal notes adding tremendous emotional support and atmosphere to the choral singing. Zinman shapes the movement's many crescendos carefully, holding both momentum and tension grippingly, but keeping the loudest outburst to the final resounding pages, where he builds up thrilling surges of sound. Choral attack is exemplary, from both the mixed and children's choirs (the latter featuring the distinctive brightly raucous tone of Zinman's continental boy trebles, which cuts effectively through complex textures).
Zinman's team of soloists is somewhat more even than Tilson-Thomas's, acquitting themselves very well in vocal quality and expression. They overlap their parts neatly in the complex double-fugue textures of Part 1, clearly listening carefully to one another and forming a cohesive ensemble. Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey tends towards a Heldentenor in tone, although he has a slightly slow vibrato. He manages Part 1 without undue strain and offers a well-characterised Doctor Marianus in Part 2. Alfred Muff is a resonant Pater Profundus, much better in this role than Tilson-Thomas's gruff James Morris.
The sopranos have nicely differentiated tone colours in ensemble, and carry off their high B flats in Part 1 without strain, although the soprano who sings with the choir near the end of Part 2, soaring up to the high C, only just manages it: this part is better done in T-T's version, where the voice floats upwards mystically on a ravishing half-tone. Zinman's Gretchen, Juliana Banse, indulges in some expressive (and unmarked) slowing in her phrasing, apparently with the connivance of Zinman.
In Part 2, Zinman's control over Mahler's chamber-like orchestration is excellent, glowing with colour, and his light-hearted way with the scherzo-like interludes sounds perfectly Austrian, providing a nice contrast with the movement's heavier philosophical moments. Zinman's Tonhalle wind band distinguish themselves particularly well here, with pungent bassoons and very characterful clarinets and oboes. The final peroration in Zurich, amply boosted by the excellent organ, really does impress mightily, although it is brighter in tone, more wind and trumpet-led, than T-T's, where the heft of his phalanx of heavy brass lends more gravitas (needed to compensate for the weaker organ in San Francisco).
RCA's engineers, very familiar with the Tonehalle main concert hall by this stage in the cycle, provide a generally excellent set of balances in their near-impossible task of compressing an overwhelming live sonic experience into a domestic setting. In Part 1, the volume needs to be raised somewhat to bring forward what is a somewhat distant balance, featuring a lot of the hall's ample ambience. The sound stage is thus rather narrow, and back to front perspective a little hazy, although everything opens up satisfyingly when played at a good volume.
While this slightly distant balance is appropriate for containing the highly complex part-writing for the massive choruses in Part 1, the engineers seem to have changed the balance somewhat for Part 2, where much of the orchestral detail is chamber-like and delicate. The back-front perspective is much more sharply focused, with clear positioning of soloists and sections, and overall the sound is much more immediate and vivid. One small detail demonstrates the sophistication of the RCA capture; in the first few pages of Part 2, there are frequent touches on a cymbal, which hisses most realistically, each time with an audible decay. The cymbals also appear in the big climaxes, where their brilliance adds much to the excitement. The San Francisco cymbals (perhaps not Zildjans), however, are disappointing at these moments - more clang than hiss.
The impact of the added brass and the full organ in the final pages is superbly caught, with not a trace of distortion. My listening at this point is always conditioned by attempts to find a cartridge which would play the final bars of Solti's Decca recording on vinyl, without disastrous distortion (some is still there in the digital transfer). Only in direct comparison with Zinman's recording quality does T-T's superb San Francisco recording appear as the winner by a narrow margin; it has a wider sound stage for the chorus (in a semicircular balcony above the orchestra) and the greater weight of his forces and transparent balance are telling. Zinman's Eighth, however, taken by itself, is nonetheless a very fine engineering achievement.
Considering its quite low price, this RCA 2-disc set is a bargain, musically and technically well worth acquiring, even if you have other versions. As recordings go, the Eighth is at last approaching a satisfactory proposition for listening at home. Still, there is no substitute for the collective experience of a good live performance. That is where you get "blown away", to quote Mahler himself.
Copyright 2010 John Miller and SA-CD.net
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6289
there is no substitute for the collective experience of a good live performance
Esta es la crítica, bastante positiva una vez más:
In the summer of 1906, Mahler returned to his country retreat at Maiernigg in Southern Austria for his holiday, in fact an annual composition period. At first deeply frustrated by a lack of ideas, the words of a Latin hymn came to him - "Veni Creator Spiritus!" - an imperious demand for inspiration from the Holy Spirit. He began to set this to music immediately, and in eight weeks of feverish effort, he completed the bulk of the work.
Mahler's first encounter with the Veni Creator text was in Goethe's translation, where the poet considered the hymn to be a call to "the universal genius of the world". This philosophical view led Mahler next to set the second scene of Goethe's 'Faust' as part of the new symphony. Goethe's idealisation of the Eternal Feminine principle was deeply buried in Mahler's own psyche. As a child, he witnessed his father's repeated brutal drunken attacks on Mahler's mother, and this 'Mary-complex' later brought Mahler appalling anguish because of his inability to satisfactorily declare his love for his own wife, Alma.
Working from an initial four movement sketch of the Eighth Symphony, Mahler was finally able to bring together the religious creative essence of Part 1 (strikingly revealed by the dominating power of the organ) with 'Creation through Eroticism' from the Faust scene, which finally became Part 2. At the end of the work, the Chorus intones "Alles Vergängliche" (all is transitory) - except, as they next sing, the Eternal Feminine, which according to Goethe "draws us towards Heaven". Sacred and Profane are thus united. Mahler lived, of course, during a period in which much attention was given to sexuality as a fount of creativity. The presence of the children's choir is also symbolic for Mahler. They represent the potentiality of Youth, and, more personally, the traumatic loss of six brothers during his childhood (and of course later his own daughter's death). Significantly too, the Eighth Symphony was finally dedicated to Alma.
The first performance in Munich of the Eighth, with over a thousand performers, was an outstanding success for Mahler. Amidst a lengthy standing applause, Bruno Walter recalled that laying down his baton, he ascended the platform steps to move along the rows of the children's choirs, shaking hands with each of them.
Mahler declared to Sibelius that the Symphony "must be the World". It is therefore not surprising that there are many possible approaches to interpretation of his symphonies, giving ardent Mahlerians endless opportunities for picking at details in every performance . For the Eighth, however, we have one unequivocal criterion from the composer himself. "After the first theme there will be no adversary left in the hall, it must bowl every one over", he tells us.
David Zinman's Mahler series with his Tonhalle Orchestra, Zurich is marked by his eschewing of various over-inflated and histrionic performing practises, relying on a deeply thought-through view of the cycle, and taking closer note of the myriad performance instructions which the composer left in his scores. This leaner, cleaner view has led to greater transparency and also less transfer of a conductor's personal foibles than in some other performances.
Zinman and Tilson-Thomas in his recent Eighth both start Part 1 at a brisk tempo, obeying Mahler's instruction of 'impetuoso', in great contrast to Chailly, who is ponderously slow. The first radiant chord of Eb Major sounded by the low winds, string basses and the Tonhalle's 4 manual Kleuker and Steinmeyer organ is indeed arresting, and the organ has an unmistakable presence throughout Part 1, its fiery upper work and very deep pedal notes adding tremendous emotional support and atmosphere to the choral singing. Zinman shapes the movement's many crescendos carefully, holding both momentum and tension grippingly, but keeping the loudest outburst to the final resounding pages, where he builds up thrilling surges of sound. Choral attack is exemplary, from both the mixed and children's choirs (the latter featuring the distinctive brightly raucous tone of Zinman's continental boy trebles, which cuts effectively through complex textures).
Zinman's team of soloists is somewhat more even than Tilson-Thomas's, acquitting themselves very well in vocal quality and expression. They overlap their parts neatly in the complex double-fugue textures of Part 1, clearly listening carefully to one another and forming a cohesive ensemble. Tenor Anthony Dean Griffey tends towards a Heldentenor in tone, although he has a slightly slow vibrato. He manages Part 1 without undue strain and offers a well-characterised Doctor Marianus in Part 2. Alfred Muff is a resonant Pater Profundus, much better in this role than Tilson-Thomas's gruff James Morris.
The sopranos have nicely differentiated tone colours in ensemble, and carry off their high B flats in Part 1 without strain, although the soprano who sings with the choir near the end of Part 2, soaring up to the high C, only just manages it: this part is better done in T-T's version, where the voice floats upwards mystically on a ravishing half-tone. Zinman's Gretchen, Juliana Banse, indulges in some expressive (and unmarked) slowing in her phrasing, apparently with the connivance of Zinman.
In Part 2, Zinman's control over Mahler's chamber-like orchestration is excellent, glowing with colour, and his light-hearted way with the scherzo-like interludes sounds perfectly Austrian, providing a nice contrast with the movement's heavier philosophical moments. Zinman's Tonhalle wind band distinguish themselves particularly well here, with pungent bassoons and very characterful clarinets and oboes. The final peroration in Zurich, amply boosted by the excellent organ, really does impress mightily, although it is brighter in tone, more wind and trumpet-led, than T-T's, where the heft of his phalanx of heavy brass lends more gravitas (needed to compensate for the weaker organ in San Francisco).
RCA's engineers, very familiar with the Tonehalle main concert hall by this stage in the cycle, provide a generally excellent set of balances in their near-impossible task of compressing an overwhelming live sonic experience into a domestic setting. In Part 1, the volume needs to be raised somewhat to bring forward what is a somewhat distant balance, featuring a lot of the hall's ample ambience. The sound stage is thus rather narrow, and back to front perspective a little hazy, although everything opens up satisfyingly when played at a good volume.
While this slightly distant balance is appropriate for containing the highly complex part-writing for the massive choruses in Part 1, the engineers seem to have changed the balance somewhat for Part 2, where much of the orchestral detail is chamber-like and delicate. The back-front perspective is much more sharply focused, with clear positioning of soloists and sections, and overall the sound is much more immediate and vivid. One small detail demonstrates the sophistication of the RCA capture; in the first few pages of Part 2, there are frequent touches on a cymbal, which hisses most realistically, each time with an audible decay. The cymbals also appear in the big climaxes, where their brilliance adds much to the excitement. The San Francisco cymbals (perhaps not Zildjans), however, are disappointing at these moments - more clang than hiss.
The impact of the added brass and the full organ in the final pages is superbly caught, with not a trace of distortion. My listening at this point is always conditioned by attempts to find a cartridge which would play the final bars of Solti's Decca recording on vinyl, without disastrous distortion (some is still there in the digital transfer). Only in direct comparison with Zinman's recording quality does T-T's superb San Francisco recording appear as the winner by a narrow margin; it has a wider sound stage for the chorus (in a semicircular balcony above the orchestra) and the greater weight of his forces and transparent balance are telling. Zinman's Eighth, however, taken by itself, is nonetheless a very fine engineering achievement.
Considering its quite low price, this RCA 2-disc set is a bargain, musically and technically well worth acquiring, even if you have other versions. As recordings go, the Eighth is at last approaching a satisfactory proposition for listening at home. Still, there is no substitute for the collective experience of a good live performance. That is where you get "blown away", to quote Mahler himself.
Copyright 2010 John Miller and SA-CD.net
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/6289
Psanquin- administrador
- Cantidad de envíos : 8413
Fecha de inscripción : 16/03/2008
Re: Octava de Zinman
Pues nada, rubrico la afirmación de John Miller!
gustavo- Cantidad de envíos : 3368
Fecha de inscripción : 10/11/2009
Re: Octava de Zinman
En una primera audición (en la que me he implicado muy poco, todo hay que decirlo), me ha parecido una interpretación muy muy floja. Demasiada contención emocional, como apuntaba Moreno; quizá sea un eufemismo por no llamarlo directamente aburrimiento. No sé si tendré ganas de volver a escucharla, porque me ha parecido que este disco no aporta nada a la discografía de esta obra.
Ludovyk- Cantidad de envíos : 1008
Fecha de inscripción : 16/03/2008
Re: Octava de Zinman
Navegando por el facebook me he encontrado con esta foto de una fiesta de cumpleaños en la que se ha aplicado una interesante costumbre; aparte de los regalos para la criatura el papá es también agraciado con un CD mahleriano [de unos amigos no mahlerianos, que buen ojo tuvieron]
Por cierto, en jpc.de está la Octava regalada, a 8.99 €
Por cierto, en jpc.de está la Octava regalada, a 8.99 €
Psanquin- administrador
- Cantidad de envíos : 8413
Fecha de inscripción : 16/03/2008
Robertino Bergamasco- Cantidad de envíos : 4479
Fecha de inscripción : 14/07/2009
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Foro MAHLER :: FORO :: MAHLER
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